Forum Discussion

SquadBrunch's avatar
8 years ago

Leader vs Unique abilities — blurring the line

Back in the day, the distinction between Leader and Unique abilities was pretty clear.

Leader = passive ability that affects enemies and/or allies
Examples: Grievous' anti-crit, Phasma's assist chance

Unique = passive ability that affects enemies and/or this character
Examples: STH's TM removal, RG auto-taunt, Savage's Offense+Defense Up

I can't say for sure that what was the first character to cross the line, but consider Wiggs for a moment. I understand there are counters to Wiggs and everything, and given the recent rebels to enter the fray (see what I did there) they may no longer be the strongest duo, but Wiggs are still extremely strong. And a big reason for that is Wedge's "Unique" which gives Offense and Speed, very important stats, to both himself and Biggs.

Ok, so now we have a Unique ability that affects a fellow ally, alright... fine. We've been asking for pair synergy, and here it is. (I personally think it's unbalanced, because Wedge Leader+Unique packs +90% Offense! on both him and Biggs out of the gate, that's like double damage right there, like 4 toons for the price of 2, anyway what do I know, I'm a biased droid user)

Now consider Chirrut's second Unique, Resolute Endurance: "Whenever a Rebel ally is Critically Hit they gain Heal Over Time for 2 turns. At the start of each turn, if Chirrut Imwe is alive, all allies with Heal Over Time recover 4% of their max health." This is essentially an alternative version of Chewie's leader ability, but the fact that it's a Unique allows stacking with other leader abilities!

I realize that General Kenobi was released before Chirrut, and GK's Unique also affects other allies. But it's safe to say that given the relative difficulty of Heroic AAT raid, currently there are less GK's floating around than Chirrut's at the moment (at least, I have yet to encounter GK on my shard or in GW).

What am I trying to say with all of this? I think pair synergy is fine, but right now with the recent chars being released, the separation between Leader and Unique is starting to look like separation between Church and State in the American Deep South. Basically, some of these Uniques are starting to look and function a lot like Leaders, which imho is very toxic for the game. I understand power creep and revenue everything, but devs, can we please have some semblance of balance here?

My suggestion to rework Chirrut Imwe, has move spoiler, do not open unless you have watched the movie:
Spoiler
In the movie Chirrut dodges like crazy—he is one with the force, the force is with him. If he had been on the beaches of Normandy at D-Day, every single bullet would have missed him! To be honest, the only reason why he died on the shores of Scarif was because he stood there and chose to die—he could have easily kept on evading shots. Making him heal-over-time based does a disgrace to the most legendary dodger the Force has ever seen.

His basics and his specials should give him a reasonable chance to gain Dodge/Foresight Up, keeping the Baze assist synergy there somewhere. He should have counter chance and health steal as usual, and his (broken) Unique should be replaced by something along the lines of: whenever Chirrut dodges an attack, counter attack (maybe even +X% damage when counter attacking after dodging). This Unique is actually, well, unique because right now, a character that dodges can't counter attack!

You could also have him counter attack assists as well. Or counter attack ignoring taunt. So many options, just anything to reflect his true ninja, and not a guy who heals (literally never saw him heal someone in the movie).
  • Imwe was not a leader, but he had definite insight fir the group. Why should his unique not reflect that?
  • scuba75's avatar
    scuba75
    Seasoned Rookie
    Forum community can never make up it's mind...
    For months it was give us better synergy, we get that with all these duo synergies... Now the complaint is that it is to much.
  • "scuba;811398" wrote:
    Forum community can never make up it's mind...
    For months it was give us better synergy, we get that with all these duo synergies... Now the complaint is that it is to much.


    +1 stop whining
  • "Asic;811044" wrote:
    Bariss unique affects all. The concept is old news and provides excellent strategy options.

    Pre-rework Barriss did have a Unique that gave a 40% chance to dispel ONE negative effect from each Jedi ally and gain 9% TM for each dispel.
    Yes, technically it does affect every (Jedi) ally, but not only is it very weak, dispel can only happen when Barriss gets a turn herself. And before her TM gaining rework, that didn't happen very frequently.
    (If you were referring to pre-nerf Barriss, I didn't play that long ago so I can't speak about her abilities then)

    Anyway, compare that to Chirrut's Unique. It gives Heal Over Time to anyone whenever they get critically hit, not when Chirrut gets a turn. It heals everyone with HoT whenever anyone takes a turn.
    The point is, if Chirrut hypothetically never took a turn, he can still (significantly!) influence the tide of a battle, something we never saw in pre-rework Barriss, and that's a very, very dangerous precedent to set because a character having Leader-like Unique abilities that passively affect everyone, without having to be a Leader position themselves, allows for stacking potential and creates a huge imbalance in the force.
    Cassian Andor's Unique also suffers from the same problem. However, Jyn Erso, while powerful in her own right (maybe even OP because of her Specials, although save that for another discussion), has a Unique that is properly designed: Fierce Determination (Zeta): Immune to stuns, +10% potency (to herself!) per critical hit scored.
  • "scuba;811398" wrote:
    Forum community can never make up it's mind...
    For months it was give us better synergy, we get that with all these duo synergies... Now the complaint is that it is to much.

    I'd like to think this discussion isn't really about synergy or duo synergy. It's about the next generation of Rebel characters breaking the distinction between Unique and Leader abilities in a way that upsets game balance, i.e. having Unique abilities that are themselves comparable to (or better than) other Leader abilities. This allows one to build a Rebel team effectively backed by two or three "Leader" abilities stacked on each other. For example, Chirrut (pseudo-L), Baze, K-2, Cassian (pseudo-L) + an actual Leader.
    I believe this direction is unhealthy for the game, and all I'm doing is voicing my criticism, which is what the forums are for after all. Those who simply dismiss that criticism as whining or complaining without any intelligent reasoning are, in my eyes, probably the ones benefiting from the broken system (not directed at the quote btw).
  • I completely agree with people saying that unique abilities shouldn't affect everyone. I think dual synergy unique abilities should be the max. BUT I do think that making unique abilities affect everyone is ok for zeta abilities (ie bariss). Chirrut's unique is really op because it stacks HoT upon HoT upon HoT and then they get healed to full every time they take a turn
  • "scuba;811398" wrote:
    Forum community can never make up it's mind...
    For months it was give us better synergy, we get that with all these duo synergies... Now the complaint is that it is to much.


    +1
  • "scuba;811398" wrote:
    Forum community can never make up it's mind...
    For months it was give us better synergy, we get that with all these duo synergies... Now the complaint is that it is to much.


    It's not the synergy, it's the characters that get the synergy that's the issue. The synergy between Anakin and ahsoka is what they should be aiming for. Ahsoka is decent, but not good on her own. However, put her in a team with Anakin and she becomes pretty good. Chirrut has the skill set of a support (cleanser and tenacity up), healer (equalize heal aka barris' signature move and heal over time), and attacker (good speed and damage). He's basically three characters rolled into one. Then you pair him up with baze, an auto taunting tank with strong dispelling moves and you basically have an arena team put into two characters. I'm fine with them having synergy but they should have relooked their skill sets before they released them.
  • Aside from rebels OP or any specifics, just talking generally, I've noticed uniques being more and more like leaders in whatever way. The title of the thread instantly hit home.

    I guess I do think it should be this way, because it's just more fun, more strategy, more effects, more to build on is just cool for the game. But it's definitely a change in the game that has occurred, and an increase in power.

    Now, rebels have got the benefit of the uniques so far, particularly with stuff that doesn't require any Zeta, but I think they will balance it in the end.

    I was a little surprised that Vader reinflicting dots was a leader ability rather than part of a unique, it seemed more fitting to a unique than a leader for me at this stage. Particularly 'while Vader is alive', leader effects don't really disappear when they die, but perhaps CG know where abilities and toons are going, and have their own balance reasons for this.
  • I think attempting to precisely define Leaders vs Uniques + the discussion about synergy is distracting from the real issue at hand here.
    Synergy aside, Leaders used to be significantly more powerful than Uniques in terms of strength and/or capability to affect the overall tide of a battle. Now, Uniques are becoming just as strong as Leaders. Krennic could be released tomorrow with a Unique called Daunting Presence: -20% critical chance, -20% critical damage for all enemies (exact copy of GG's Leader) and nobody would bat an eye, because that's where the power creep in this game is headed.
    Granted, maybe that just means that most Leaders are outdated and need reworks. I guess if all the obsolete characters are given the Finn treatment, everything will work out eventually.