Self preservation zeta for sith raid

Sorry for going off topic. I like bb8’s second zeta

"Sneekypete;c-1585278" wrote:
Read up found some info on reddit. Apparently people have better success with bb8 zeta less restarts and better recovery from mistakes. I bit the bullet and did it I'll see how it works in about 2 days

This has been my experience aswell. The 4m+ scores in my guild were almost exclusively done by players with 2 zeta bb8. Its a pricy zeta for just p1, but i did it just to get a bit less frustated, so totally worth it ;) hope you like it aswell.

Assuming you are correct about the zeta preventing the negative effects when using a basic while you’re debuffed with defence down its still situational at best since it just doesnt happen often that you’re forced to use a basic with def down.
For all intents and purposes it doesnt improve survivability. Both nihilus (the main dmg dealer) en Sith assassin ignore protection. So the only times you can actually take dmg to your protection are when Sith assassin isnt stealthed and attacks and when Sith Marauder attacks. Those are the only attacks that could potentially cause you to lose Health where as you wouldnt have if you had more protection due to the R2zeta. Easily prevented by bb8’s protection recovery and/or simply not letting them take turns. Basically for normal play it simply doesnt improve survivability. If it does, you can improve your score way more by changing the way you play than by zeta-ing R2. So Yes, technically it can improve survivability, but during normal play it just doesnt and your characters just die with protection.
As for increased offence, again under the same assumption, it does improve your score. Since its situational at best i’d reckon the difference isnt even noticable. If it adds more than 5% on average i’d be suprised. Feel free to give an estimate yourself, i for one am curious how much you think it adds since you’re recommending the zeta for p1.
Bb8’s second zeta adds way more to the team than r2’s. This is a judgement call on a fact, not an opinion. It either does or doesn’t, whether i’m capable of judging it correctly is a different matter.
If i remember and i’m able to be online during p1 i’ll test if you’re correct about preventing the negative effects of basic-ing with def down.

I have all zetas except scavenger rey now lol all good I'll test. Dont care about anything other than dmg before ship (re) farming in was getting a 2 zeta every 3 days from.ships and 2 on avg a week from so I had built a large number and blew it all on with raid teams
JtR, Ns, troopers , Phoenix, chex mix. Now gonna switch to Yoda teams after these darn ships are all 7*

"leef;c-1585581" wrote:
Assuming you are correct about the zeta preventing the negative effects when using a basic while you’re debuffed with defence down its still situational at best since it just doesnt happen often that you’re forced to use a basic with def down.
For all intents and purposes it doesnt improve survivability. Both nihilus (the main dmg dealer) en Sith assassin ignore protection. So the only times you can actually take dmg to your protection are when Sith assassin isnt stealthed and attacks and when Sith Marauder attacks. Those are the only attacks that could potentially cause you to lose Health where as you wouldnt have if you had more protection due to the R2zeta. Easily prevented by bb8’s protection recovery and/or simply not letting them take turns. Basically for normal play it simply doesnt improve survivability. If it does, you can improve your score way more by changing the way you play than by zeta-ing R2. So Yes, technically it can improve survivability, but during normal play it just doesnt and your characters just die with protection.
As for increased offence, again under the same assumption, it does improve your score. Since its situational at best i’d reckon the difference isnt even noticable. If it adds more than 5% on average i’d be suprised. Feel free to give an estimate yourself, i for one am curious how much you think it adds since you’re recommending the zeta for p1.
Bb8’s second zeta adds way more to the team than r2’s. This is a judgement call on a fact, not an opinion. It either does or doesn’t, whether i’m capable of judging it correctly is a different matter.
If i remember and i’m able to be online during p1 i’ll test if you’re correct about preventing the negative effects of basic-ing with def down.

Personally, I'd say that if you aren't killing the adds with R2's AoE, you are wasting actions taking out adds when you could be doing more damage to Nihilus himself. And since, as you say, that protection is worthless any other way, that means wasted damage. Also Sith Assassin only ignores protection with her special attack when stealthed. Her basic never ignores protection.

As for the % increase in damage from R2's cleanse, I'd say about 1 out of every 3 or 4 attacks on Nihilus is a basic while you have defense down at which point he gains enough protection to negate a hit, so something like 25-33%% more damage is what you should be getting by having R2's combat analysis zetad.


R2's combat analysis is, without a doubt, AMAZING for this phase of the raid. It adds more to this team than any other zeta period, though Rey's leader ability is a close second.

"Woodroward;c-1586084" wrote:

Personally, I'd say that if you aren't killing the adds with R2's AoE, you are wasting actions taking out adds when you could be doing more damage to Nihilus himself. And since, as you say, that protection is worthless any other way, that means wasted damage. Also Sith Assassin only ignores protection with her special attack when stealthed. Her basic never ignores protection.

Her basic also ignores protection while she's stealthed.
"Easily prevented by bb8’s protection recovery and/or simply not letting them take turns." Doesn't really matter how you deal with the adds, this still applies. You can even use basics on them to prevent getting def down in the first place.

As for the % increase in damage from R2's cleanse, I'd say about 1 out of every 3 or 4 attacks on Nihilus is a basic while you have defense down at which point he gains enough protection to negate a hit, so something like 25-33%% more damage is what you should be getting by having R2's combat analysis zetad.

R2's combat analysis is, without a doubt, AMAZING for this phase of the raid. It adds more to this team than any other zeta period, though Rey's leader ability is a close second.

This explains your point of view. JTR lead is by far the most important zeta on that team, it's not even close. Not an opinion, that's a fact. We're talking about atleast doubling your dmg due to that 1 zeta.
When a Resistance ally uses a Special ability, all Exposed enemies lose 5% Turn Meter, which can't be Evaded or Resisted; When a Resistance ally uses a Special ability, if they aren't debuffed, reduce their Cooldowns by 1
It also explains why you think r2's zeta is so usefull, you're forced to do way more basics than players that do have JTR's lead zeta'd due to the CD reduction. The TMR is also key to do alot of damage and it also enables you to "controll" the adds.
In case you were just trolling, you got me ;)

"leef;c-1586133" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1586084" wrote:

Personally, I'd say that if you aren't killing the adds with R2's AoE, you are wasting actions taking out adds when you could be doing more damage to Nihilus himself. And since, as you say, that protection is worthless any other way, that means wasted damage. Also Sith Assassin only ignores protection with her special attack when stealthed. Her basic never ignores protection.

Her basic also ignores protection while she's stealthed.
"Easily prevented by bb8’s protection recovery and/or simply not letting them take turns." Doesn't really matter how you deal with the adds, this still applies. You can even use basics on them to prevent getting def down in the first place.

As for the % increase in damage from R2's cleanse, I'd say about 1 out of every 3 or 4 attacks on Nihilus is a basic while you have defense down at which point he gains enough protection to negate a hit, so something like 25-33%% more damage is what you should be getting by having R2's combat analysis zetad.

R2's combat analysis is, without a doubt, AMAZING for this phase of the raid. It adds more to this team than any other zeta period, though Rey's leader ability is a close second.

This explains your point of view. JTR lead is by far the most important zeta on that team, it's not even close. Not an opinion, that's a fact. We're talking about atleast doubling your dmg due to that 1 zeta.
When a Resistance ally uses a Special ability, all Exposed enemies lose 5% Turn Meter, which can't be Evaded or Resisted; When a Resistance ally uses a Special ability, if they aren't debuffed, reduce their Cooldowns by 1
It also explains why you think r2's zeta is so usefull, you're forced to do way more basics than players that do have JTR's lead zeta'd due to the CD reduction. The TMR is also key to do alot of damage and it also enables you to "controll" the adds.
In case you were just trolling, you got me ;)

Oh I have her lead zetad, but R2's combat analysis easily increases damage as much or more than that. The tm reduction is negligible especially against Nihilus with his stacking speed, sure tm removal is hard against Nihilus in general, but it's a mechanic that is doomed to fail because of the mechanics of the phase. I don't see it giving any more than 5-10% more offense.

While the JTR lead may be the best all around lead across the board on this raid, it is also heavily diminished by the mechanics of the raid. On P1, defense down routinely prevents cooldowns from being reduced. On p2, it's Sion's debuff, same problems for the first 2/3s of p4. Only in p3 is her lead regularly reducing cooldowns, but it doesn't really shine there due to the bonds of weakness mechanic. Because it rarely reduces cooldowns in p1 (pretty much 50% of the time if you have 2 specials, and 10% of the time if you have 1), it hardly increases offense there at all. Maybe 5-10%.

So it's not an opinion that the JTR lead zeta is worth less on this raid than it is anywhere else, whereas the R2 combat analysis zeta is worth more on this phase of this raid than it is anywhere else period.

The JTR lead zeta increases the damage of this team about 10-20%, while the R2 zeta increases it about 25-33%. It is better.

"Woodroward;c-1586155" wrote:

"leef;c-1586133" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1586084" wrote:

Personally, I'd say that if you aren't killing the adds with R2's AoE, you are wasting actions taking out adds when you could be doing more damage to Nihilus himself. And since, as you say, that protection is worthless any other way, that means wasted damage. Also Sith Assassin only ignores protection with her special attack when stealthed. Her basic never ignores protection.

Her basic also ignores protection while she's stealthed.
"Easily prevented by bb8’s protection recovery and/or simply not letting them take turns." Doesn't really matter how you deal with the adds, this still applies. You can even use basics on them to prevent getting def down in the first place.

As for the % increase in damage from R2's cleanse, I'd say about 1 out of every 3 or 4 attacks on Nihilus is a basic while you have defense down at which point he gains enough protection to negate a hit, so something like 25-33%% more damage is what you should be getting by having R2's combat analysis zetad.

R2's combat analysis is, without a doubt, AMAZING for this phase of the raid. It adds more to this team than any other zeta period, though Rey's leader ability is a close second.

This explains your point of view. JTR lead is by far the most important zeta on that team, it's not even close. Not an opinion, that's a fact. We're talking about atleast doubling your dmg due to that 1 zeta.
When a Resistance ally uses a Special ability, all Exposed enemies lose 5% Turn Meter, which can't be Evaded or Resisted; When a Resistance ally uses a Special ability, if they aren't debuffed, reduce their Cooldowns by 1
It also explains why you think r2's zeta is so usefull, you're forced to do way more basics than players that do have JTR's lead zeta'd due to the CD reduction. The TMR is also key to do alot of damage and it also enables you to "controll" the adds.
In case you were just trolling, you got me ;)

Oh I have her lead zetad, but R2's combat analysis easily increases damage as much or more than that. The tm reduction is negligible especially against Nihilus with his stacking speed, and with all the assists the team has people rarely don't have defense down so their cooldowns don't get reduced frequently. R2's combat analysis is consistently increasing offense, whereas the JTR lead is only occasionally increasing offense in this raid.

I don't know what to tell you, you're just plain wrong. sorry. I suggest counting the times you're forced use a basic on nihilus with def down, it might not be as often as you think. Atleast you've left the improved survivability out of your comment this time, so i guess you've come to realize that i was right about that.

So it's not an opinion that the JTR lead zeta is worth less on this raid than it is anywhere else, whereas the R2 combat analysis zeta is worth more on this phase of this raid than it is anywhere else period.

I've never made any statements on how usefull the JTR lead zeta is in this raid compared to anywhere else, it's also completely irrelevant to this discussion. Same goes for the R2 zeta, but i've mentioned that it's an awesome zeta for other purposes.

I feel sorry for you that you have no idea how good R2's zeta actually is in this raid.

Do you really feel sorry for me, or is it just your way of saying you're superior to me? ;) It's kinda funny since you've been proven wrong multiple times during our discussion, points wich you conviniently left out in your further comments, yet you stubornly keep going. "Combat analysis" being a better zeta for p1 STR than "Inspirational presence", haha. Come on man.
Anway, even if you zeta'd "combat analysis" just for p1 STR, you've still got an awesome zeta for other purposes eventhough it doesn't help much in p1 STR. So no harm done.

"leef;c-1586206" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1586155" wrote:

"leef;c-1586133" wrote:

"Woodroward;c-1586084" wrote:

Personally, I'd say that if you aren't killing the adds with R2's AoE, you are wasting actions taking out adds when you could be doing more damage to Nihilus himself. And since, as you say, that protection is worthless any other way, that means wasted damage. Also Sith Assassin only ignores protection with her special attack when stealthed. Her basic never ignores protection.

Her basic also ignores protection while she's stealthed.
"Easily prevented by bb8’s protection recovery and/or simply not letting them take turns." Doesn't really matter how you deal with the adds, this still applies. You can even use basics on them to prevent getting def down in the first place.

As for the % increase in damage from R2's cleanse, I'd say about 1 out of every 3 or 4 attacks on Nihilus is a basic while you have defense down at which point he gains enough protection to negate a hit, so something like 25-33%% more damage is what you should be getting by having R2's combat analysis zetad.

R2's combat analysis is, without a doubt, AMAZING for this phase of the raid. It adds more to this team than any other zeta period, though Rey's leader ability is a close second.

This explains your point of view. JTR lead is by far the most important zeta on that team, it's not even close. Not an opinion, that's a fact. We're talking about atleast doubling your dmg due to that 1 zeta.
When a Resistance ally uses a Special ability, all Exposed enemies lose 5% Turn Meter, which can't be Evaded or Resisted; When a Resistance ally uses a Special ability, if they aren't debuffed, reduce their Cooldowns by 1
It also explains why you think r2's zeta is so usefull, you're forced to do way more basics than players that do have JTR's lead zeta'd due to the CD reduction. The TMR is also key to do alot of damage and it also enables you to "controll" the adds.
In case you were just trolling, you got me ;)

Oh I have her lead zetad, but R2's combat analysis easily increases damage as much or more than that. The tm reduction is negligible especially against Nihilus with his stacking speed, and with all the assists the team has people rarely don't have defense down so their cooldowns don't get reduced frequently. R2's combat analysis is consistently increasing offense, whereas the JTR lead is only occasionally increasing offense in this raid.

I don't know what to tell you, you're just plain wrong. sorry. I suggest counting the times you're forced use a basic on nihilus with def down, it might not be as often as you think. Atleast you've left the improved survivability out of your comment this time, so i guess you've come to realize that i was right about that.

So it's not an opinion that the JTR lead zeta is worth less on this raid than it is anywhere else, whereas the R2 combat analysis zeta is worth more on this phase of this raid than it is anywhere else period.

I've never made any statements on how usefull the JTR lead zeta is in this raid compared to anywhere else, it's also completely irrelevant to this discussion. Same goes for the R2 zeta, but i've mentioned that it's an awesome zeta for other purposes.

I feel sorry for you that you have no idea how good R2's zeta actually is in this raid.

Do you really feel sorry for me, or is it just your way of saying you're superior to me? ;) It's kinda funny since you've been proven wrong multiple times during our discussion, points wich you conviniently left out in your further comments, yet you stubornly keep going. "Combat analysis" being a better zeta for p1 STR than "Inspirational presence", haha. Come on man.
Anway, even if you zeta'd "combat analysis" just for p1 STR, you've still got an awesome zeta for other purposes eventhough it doesn't help much in p1 STR. So no harm done.

Proven wrong? About what? OK, I was wrong that Nihilus's basic doesn't ignore protection.

Other than that I have been correct about everything I've said.

You were wrong on your very first post in this topic telling me I was wrong in thinking that R2's zeta prevented the damage from Nihilus.

Then you were wrong in thinking that healing immunity prevented the bonus protection from when you attacked him too.

Then you were wrong in estimating that as 5% of the time. 1 out 20 attacks on your side is a basic with defense down? I don't believe that for a second. You're the one who needs to count how often it happens.

I'm not guessing. The % offense I came up with is based on me counting how many times I hit Nihilus with a basic attack with defense down. It happens roughly 1 out of every 3 or 4 attacks. I left the survivability comment out because you got all elitist about strategy. "Oh if you do it any way other than me, you're doing it wrong".

I give up. There's no point convincing someone of the truth when they don't know what they're talking about from the start, and can't even admit the numerous things they've been wrong about.

Don't even try to tell me you can judge R2's zeta's effect more accurately than I when you had no idea what it was even doing before I explained it to you. Get off your high horse and realize that you are the student in this topic and I am the teacher.

Started off saying I was wrong, so just have to try to find some way to make sure I am. Let your ego go. Embrace the truth.

I have been a little technically incorrect in one thing.

R2's zeta doesn't actually increase damage, it just makes more of it count.
So it's not really like a 25-33% increase in damage so much as a lack of a 25-33% decrease in damage.

Why do JTR squads do 10X as much damage as most squads against Nihilus?

Sure she's got a killer lead, but that isn't why. The raid mechanics make mincemeat of her leader ability. Not only are your teams cooldowns not getting reduced because you're debuffed, but they're getting increased by Nihilus.

No, It's because of her healing immunity and R2's cleanse. Those are the money makers. Never having to go through bonus protection is why she's so good, and everyone else is so crappy.

So R2's combat analysis zeta is actually the most important/effective zeta on the whole team for this particular encounter since JTR's healing immunity is not tied to her leadership.

"leef;c-1586706" wrote:
used a basic with def down 3 times total in this vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1a5hqTKYUI&t=430s

used a basic with def down 5 times total in this vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ebER5Sm1ok&t=134s

Probably too "elitist" for you, the selfproclaimed teacher (wich was a nice touch), but it does show how little R2's zeta comes into play, even if it does prevent the negative effects of using basics with def down. I'm still going to test that when i get the chance, i've no problem conceding if it turns out you were correct about that.
JTR's lead CD reduction is actually way better than you give it credit for, it pairs really well with bb8. The TMR is also way better than you give it credit for, especially combined with the CD reduction.
Saying R2's zeta is the most important/effective zeta on the whole team for p1 is just laughable. It's extra funny because you're so arrogant ;)

Yeah, I am the teacher. You didn't know anything about what R2's zeta was bringing to the fight. Test whenever you want. I find it arrogant as hell that you're arguing with me about any of this without having done any testing or research yourself.

Everything I have stated about R2's zeta is what I know to be true based on testing.

And you're right. Posting someone else's video is too elitist for me. Between BB's assist and the lack of cooldown reduction in this phase of the raid. I end up attacking Nihilus with a basic with defense down on them every 3 or 4 attacks. Like I said, I always attack Nihilus. I get better damage doing so than ever focusing on the adds. I call it elitist because it is thinking whatever strategy is currently being used is the "best" strategy. The fact that those people only attacked 3 or 5 times is irrelevant to me. It says to me they probably wasted far too many actions not attacking Nihilus. See with R2 in the comp there's no reason NOT to attack Nihlus, because he neuters the majority of that effect. Sure you still take more damage when you get attacked, and it guarantees the cooldown increase from Nihilus, but those aren't the parts that are trying to be avoided.

To put it another way: If they are only attacking Nihilus with a basic while having defense down 3-5 times an attempt, they're doing it wrong. (You see what I did there?). Of course I'm joking by taking this tact, but strategy is everything. How could you possibly know you are using the best strategy when you didn't even know what all of your team composition was bringing to the table?

Leaving the adds up instead of ever targeting them does many great things for your composition: Increases the amount of tm you gain because more targets can get exposes up; Lets you not waste attacks on them thereby increasing the damage you do to Nihilus; The fact that they hit your protection means doing so doesn't significantly impact your survivability and your healing immunity means it doesn't significantly impact your damage; Gives more targets for BB8 to counterattack generating more tm by landing exposes.

People's strategy's are based around avoiding hitting Nihilus with a basic with defense down. I think that's foolish. R2 counteracts the need to do so. So someone using a subpar strategy (in my opinion) that doesn't take advantage of everything a zeta brings to the table doesn't count as a good example of what that zeta DOES bring to the table.

If you want to post videos following that strategy, then count all the times they attacked an add instead of Nihilus too.

Come on man, you are the ignorant one here. Why can't you just admit it instead of trying to insist that I am?