I've read a lot and given this a lot of thought, and this is what I've come up with.The main problem with the raid, at least for sub-Heroic guilds, is that it's always active. When's the last time you had a day where you didn't have a Sith raid active, with 5 hits to do each and every single day? Sometimes 10 when it was defeated and started again? Ideally, such an important guild event would take place a couple of days a week, at most. This way, it would remain exciting for those participating, instead of the endless grind it has become.Everyone I know autos 4 out of their 5 battles, on average. Even my guild leader has a note telling everyone to make sure to use their 5 attacks and auto them if needed. This is representative of how tired we all are of fighting the same battles each and every day.It really is such a shame, because the battles in this raid are more innovative and interesting than anything we've seen so far.There are undoubtedly solutions for this. One solution would be to require an unlock for each tier, say, clearing the previous tier in under 2 days. Another would be to set a time limit on all difficulties. I'm sure you can come up with something better than what I can come up with.Find a way to prevent us from running this raid every single day of our lives, and you'll undoubtedly increase player interest in the raid and its offerings.p.s. I read that once you can beat tier 6 without wasting tickets, you can beat heroic - this seems quite unbalanced and I truly hope it isn't so.

The problem lies on broken mechanics which makes pretty much all phases a damage rush instead of some carefully thought out composition to navigate the mechanics.Yes, i'm aware of how certain teams have been drafted to work with them, but they all feel almost like exploiting because of how specific they are in function, and how next to no variance is allowed in these compositionsStacking speed and tenacity aren't bad mechanics, but they are WAY overtuned, the speed isnt actually that bad, i'd lower it JUST a smidge (10, or 5 less speed per hit recieved), but 50% extra tenacity is TOO MUCH, one hit makes it VERY difficult to stick anything, TWO makes it impossible.That's without touching the amount of health we have to carve through.

"JKRevan;c-1529998" wrote:Stacking speed and tenacity aren't bad mechanics, but they are WAY overtuned, the speed isnt actually that bad, i'd lower it JUST a smidge (10, or 5 less speed per hit recieved), but 50% extra tenacity is TOO MUCH, one hit makes it VERY difficult to stick anything, TWO makes it impossible.And that's on top of high base tenacity.Honestly, I think the worst problem is Nihilus. The man so specifically counters every option but irresistible debuffs that there just aren't good strategies left.You can't beat him by debuffing him unless they're irresistible debuffs, because high base tenacity and stacking tenacity.You can't beat him by buffing your guys because he eats buffs.You can't do death by a thousand cuts because he has regenerating protection.Basics are a liability because you do it once, and for the next two turns unless you cleanse, you give him protection back, and his potency is high enough that getting enough tenacity to reliably resist his defense down isn't practical, and there are very few methods to practically cleanse that fast enough.That means you have to rely on specials, but that doesn't work reliably either, because he has AoE cooldown increase.Nihilus is such an incredibly unsatisfying fight that shuts down almost every team so absolutely. It's incredibly frustrating and unsatisfying.

Was this their intent? I'm still trying wrap my head around what CG was thinking w/ nihilus. If this one section (phase 1 & part of 4) was reworked, I could be swayed to not auto the raid... even if it was constantly running.I'm used to get so "rage quit" angry by my 15th restart that i just started autoing everything.

"YaeVizsla;c-1530358" wrote:Nihilus is such an incredibly unsatisfying fight that shuts down almost every team so absolutely. It's incredibly frustrating and unsatisfying."t0neg0d;c-1530366" wrote:Was this their intent? I'm still trying wrap my head around what CG was thinking w/ nihilus. If this one section (phase 1 & part of 4) was reworked, I could be swayed to not auto the raid... even if it was constantly running.This is a good point. The most boring part of the raid is Nihilus. If they nerf him, it wil be a good start on improving raid's playability.

DN being really difficult in Phase 1 follows the same Raid design as NAAT / HAAT. GG used to be the toughest to get through until players farmed the right combination of characters (or exploited a design flaw with zKylo Ren). Guild leadership needs to stop pushing players into the top tier which requires the guild to constantly be engaged in STR. As mentioned, the rewards aren't that great. So why not just do a couple of T5's or T4's and then drop down to T2 or T3 a couple of times so players get a break? You still get currency. A lot of the "problems" people state about the raid are just the same game play challenges we've all encountered in previous raids and / or are the result of poor guild leadership. Please please please stop forcing your players into constantly playing STR. PS - I also think health on the raids should be dropped another 10% across all non-heroic tiers, but the bigger problem is people launching the most difficult raid their guild can complete without wasting tickets over and over and over again. Don't blame the game for poor leadership.

Sith Triumvirate: The Real Problem (IMO)

EvenMoarDakka
7 years ago
The problem lies on broken mechanics which makes pretty much all phases a damage rush instead of some carefully thought out composition to navigate the mechanics.

Yes, i'm aware of how certain teams have been drafted to work with them, but they all feel almost like exploiting because of how specific they are in function, and how next to no variance is allowed in these compositions

Stacking speed and tenacity aren't bad mechanics, but they are WAY overtuned, the speed isnt actually that bad, i'd lower it JUST a smidge (10, or 5 less speed per hit recieved), but 50% extra tenacity is TOO MUCH, one hit makes it VERY difficult to stick anything, TWO makes it impossible.

That's without touching the amount of health we have to carve through.
BlueRoseBlade
7 years ago
"JKRevan;c-1529998" wrote:
Stacking speed and tenacity aren't bad mechanics, but they are WAY overtuned, the speed isnt actually that bad, i'd lower it JUST a smidge (10, or 5 less speed per hit recieved), but 50% extra tenacity is TOO MUCH, one hit makes it VERY difficult to stick anything, TWO makes it impossible.

And that's on top of high base tenacity.

Honestly, I think the worst problem is Nihilus. The man so specifically counters every option but irresistible debuffs that there just aren't good strategies left.

You can't beat him by debuffing him unless they're irresistible debuffs, because high base tenacity and stacking tenacity.

You can't beat him by buffing your guys because he eats buffs.

You can't do death by a thousand cuts because he has regenerating protection.

Basics are a liability because you do it once, and for the next two turns unless you cleanse, you give him protection back, and his potency is high enough that getting enough tenacity to reliably resist his defense down isn't practical, and there are very few methods to practically cleanse that fast enough.

That means you have to rely on specials, but that doesn't work reliably either, because he has AoE cooldown increase.

Nihilus is such an incredibly unsatisfying fight that shuts down almost every team so absolutely. It's incredibly frustrating and unsatisfying.
t0neg0d
7 years ago
Was this their intent? I'm still trying wrap my head around what CG was thinking w/ nihilus. If this one section (phase 1 & part of 4) was reworked, I could be swayed to not auto the raid... even if it was constantly running.

I'm used to get so "rage quit" angry by my 15th restart that i just started autoing everything.
xtended2l
7 years ago
"YaeVizsla;c-1530358" wrote:

Nihilus is such an incredibly unsatisfying fight that shuts down almost every team so absolutely. It's incredibly frustrating and unsatisfying.

"t0neg0d;c-1530366" wrote:
Was this their intent? I'm still trying wrap my head around what CG was thinking w/ nihilus. If this one section (phase 1 & part of 4) was reworked, I could be swayed to not auto the raid... even if it was constantly running.

This is a good point. The most boring part of the raid is Nihilus. If they nerf him, it wil be a good start on improving raid's playability.
bcarry82
7 years ago
DN being really difficult in Phase 1 follows the same Raid design as NAAT / HAAT. GG used to be the toughest to get through until players farmed the right combination of characters (or exploited a design flaw with zKylo Ren).

Guild leadership needs to stop pushing players into the top tier which requires the guild to constantly be engaged in STR. As mentioned, the rewards aren't that great. So why not just do a couple of T5's or T4's and then drop down to T2 or T3 a couple of times so players get a break? You still get currency.

A lot of the "problems" people state about the raid are just the same game play challenges we've all encountered in previous raids and / or are the result of poor guild leadership. Please please please stop forcing your players into constantly playing STR.

PS - I also think health on the raids should be dropped another 10% across all non-heroic tiers, but the bigger problem is people launching the most difficult raid their guild can complete without wasting tickets over and over and over again. Don't blame the game for poor leadership.
ShaunyVee
Seasoned Newcomer
7 years ago
I hated Nihilus before he became a raid boss.

Mechanics aren't fun, they're annoying.
bcarry82
7 years ago
"xtended2l;c-1531025" wrote:
"Rebel_yell;c-1530886" wrote:
"xtended2l;c-1530870" wrote:
"Rebel_yell;c-1530846" wrote:
DN being really difficult in Phase 1 follows the same Raid design as NAAT / HAAT. GG used to be the toughest to get through until players farmed the right combination of characters (or exploited a design flaw with zKylo Ren).

Guild leadership needs to stop pushing players into the top tier which requires the guild to constantly be engaged in STR. As mentioned, the rewards aren't that great. So why not just do a couple of T5's or T4's and then drop down to T2 or T3 a couple of times so players get a break? You still get currency.

A lot of the "problems" people state about the raid are just the same game play challenges we've all encountered in previous raids and / or are the result of poor guild leadership. Please please please stop forcing your players into constantly playing STR.

PS - I also think health on the raids should be dropped another 10% across all non-heroic tiers, but the bigger problem is people launching the most difficult raid their guild can complete without wasting tickets over and over and over again. Don't blame the game for poor leadership.

Cannot agree with this. How it works in our guild:
We are not forcing anyone to play STR. We discuss it with everyone, and try to find a better tier to accomplish. First we tried lower tiers of the raid, aka 2,3 and rewards were just ridiculous. Absolutely useless gear for us. And 3rd tier was the one, which still takes less time to finish than to collect back spent raid tickets. From the other hand, tier 4 takes double time to accomplish(compared to 3), so our raid tickets stuck at 150k, but it gives good rewards, like carbanti 3, stun guns 5, holoprojectors 3, etc.. That is the gear everyone need. So there is no point in doing tier 3, if it was even 3 times easier.
1st and 4th phases of the raid are boring anyway, not depending on the tier you are playing. Also player loses only 10-20% damage by autoplaying these phases instead of playing them manually. And it is not a big payout for not getting bored by broken mechanics.

That line of thinking is exactly what's going to lead to burnout. My point was very simple, the gear rewards aren't good. Run a couple at the max tier you can complete and then run a couple of them at a lower tier simply for the currency. If everyone in your guild is onboard with constantly running Tier 4 without a break in play, good on you, but then don't let me catch you posting that players are "burned out"

Also, you can buy all of those with guild currency. So, if you're able to burn down tickets in Tier 2 or Tier 3, you actually get more currency which equals more rewards. You're leaving raid gear on the table with your method.

No and no. We calculated even this. Guild currency does not fix anything. You cannot buy all the gear you receive for completing tier 4 using that bonus amount of currency(the difference is about 1000 guild tokens), which comes from completing tier 3 twice.

And again, the reason people autoplays 1st and 4th phase is because of boring Nihilus. It is two different reasons why players do not care much about new raid.

You said you were constantly sitting at 150k tickets. If you're wasting tickets, you're wasting currency. Your calculations are wrong.
tvsfrink
7 years ago
Which part of "if you're wasting tickets you're wasting currency" is confusing to you?
bcarry82
7 years ago
"xtended2l;c-1531211" wrote:
"Rebel_yell;c-1531093" wrote:
"xtended2l;c-1531025" wrote:
"Rebel_yell;c-1530886" wrote:
"xtended2l;c-1530870" wrote:
"Rebel_yell;c-1530846" wrote:
DN being really difficult in Phase 1 follows the same Raid design as NAAT / HAAT. GG used to be the toughest to get through until players farmed the right combination of characters (or exploited a design flaw with zKylo Ren).

Guild leadership needs to stop pushing players into the top tier which requires the guild to constantly be engaged in STR. As mentioned, the rewards aren't that great. So why not just do a couple of T5's or T4's and then drop down to T2 or T3 a couple of times so players get a break? You still get currency.

A lot of the "problems" people state about the raid are just the same game play challenges we've all encountered in previous raids and / or are the result of poor guild leadership. Please please please stop forcing your players into constantly playing STR.

PS - I also think health on the raids should be dropped another 10% across all non-heroic tiers, but the bigger problem is people launching the most difficult raid their guild can complete without wasting tickets over and over and over again. Don't blame the game for poor leadership.

Cannot agree with this. How it works in our guild:
We are not forcing anyone to play STR. We discuss it with everyone, and try to find a better tier to accomplish. First we tried lower tiers of the raid, aka 2,3 and rewards were just ridiculous. Absolutely useless gear for us. And 3rd tier was the one, which still takes less time to finish than to collect back spent raid tickets. From the other hand, tier 4 takes double time to accomplish(compared to 3), so our raid tickets stuck at 150k, but it gives good rewards, like carbanti 3, stun guns 5, holoprojectors 3, etc.. That is the gear everyone need. So there is no point in doing tier 3, if it was even 3 times easier.
1st and 4th phases of the raid are boring anyway, not depending on the tier you are playing. Also player loses only 10-20% damage by autoplaying these phases instead of playing them manually. And it is not a big payout for not getting bored by broken mechanics.

That line of thinking is exactly what's going to lead to burnout. My point was very simple, the gear rewards aren't good. Run a couple at the max tier you can complete and then run a couple of them at a lower tier simply for the currency. If everyone in your guild is onboard with constantly running Tier 4 without a break in play, good on you, but then don't let me catch you posting that players are "burned out"

Also, you can buy all of those with guild currency. So, if you're able to burn down tickets in Tier 2 or Tier 3, you actually get more currency which equals more rewards. You're leaving raid gear on the table with your method.

No and no. We calculated even this. Guild currency does not fix anything. You cannot buy all the gear you receive for completing tier 4 using that bonus amount of currency(the difference is about 1000 guild tokens), which comes from completing tier 3 twice.

And again, the reason people autoplays 1st and 4th phase is because of boring Nihilus. It is two different reasons why players do not care much about new raid.

You said you were constantly sitting at 150k tickets. If you're wasting tickets, you're wasting currency. Your calculations are wrong.

My calculations are just fine. I dont see any calculations from you though, which prove that my calculations are wrong.

We are legit trying to help you. Let us.
X-Kurare-X
7 years ago
The problem with the Sith raid is:
Tier 1 (10m each phase?, lvl40, gear 5) = AAT (about same hp all phases, meant for lvl80, gear 8) this would be insane grind for lvl50 toons with gear 5
Tier 2 (20m each phase?, lvl50, gear 6)
Tier 3 (40m each phase?, lvl60, gear 7) = each phase one full AAT (rewards are lvl70 gear, and less tokens, credits)
Tier 4 (80m each phase?, lvl70, gear 8)
Tier 5 (160m each phase?, lvl75, gear 9)
Tier 6 (320m each phase?, lvl80, gear 10)...its just insane amount of hp
Tier 7 (m? each phase, lvl85, gear 11+)

Its no fun to play against a huge hp pool for endless days. It only favours in the end autoplay and thats it - the opposite the developers intended to do.
If you play manually you will notice the following:

All fights - no debuffs stuck reliable, unless unresistable effects from a handful of chars

Phase 1 - debuffs are completely random, so how many reduction to his annihilate he will receive you will not know if he increased your cooldowns before and your team is forced to use the standard attack, can be very frustrating fight if you really try your best

Phase 2 - good fight concept, difficult for debuff tanks like sion to land your taunt on him

Phase 3 - disaster as fight, if swords get foresight you are half jinxed, if you fight against her and the swords land a debuff on your riposting char she will nearly solo till enrage as she will remove your tm permanently

Phase 4 - combines all phases and the result is with all 3 up its just a random mess of doing damage or getting quick dispatched

Is this raid the one the players really wanted to have - i am certainly not sure and i do not believe the hitpoints pool matches the effort in any way. Its just feels like a time sink and no fun at all. Its neither hard, its just random without my post being a random rant :wink:

Make the fight more suiting and the extra clicks way more "strong" if you intend to nerf the autoplay function - thats fine. Just for the sake of the fun for all players - nerf the insane hitpoints pool (i think x10 less would fit the reward), let some effect land on the boss and make more teams viable.