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donas3283's avatar
donas3283
Rising Novice
25 days ago

Do Not Change the Rules at Diamond

Hi Respawn team,

I want to raise a concern about the current structure of Apex Legends Ranked.

This is not a request to make Diamond, Master, or Predator easier.

My concern is much more fundamental:

Why should the rules of the game change when a player reaches the higher ranks?

A player can climb through Ranked playing traditional Battle Royale with the Dropship, but once the lobby contains enough Diamond, Master, and Predator players, the game can switch to Drop Zones.

At that point, Ranked is no longer simply giving the player stronger opponents.

It is changing the competitive environment itself.

I believe this creates a structural advantage for players who are already established in the highest ranks, while making it unnecessarily difficult for new players to enter that ecosystem.

THE BASIC PROBLEM: DO NOT CHANGE THE RULES HALFWAY THROUGH A RANKED LADDER

Imagine a football tournament where every team plays under normal football rules until the semifinals.

Then, starting with the semifinals, the rules suddenly change.

Even if the new rules are perfectly fair by themselves, there is an obvious problem:

The tournament is no longer testing every team under the same competitive rules.

I believe Apex Ranked currently has a similar problem.

From the lower ranks through Platinum, players learn and demonstrate their ability under traditional Battle Royale conditions.

They choose where to land.

They observe enemy squads during descent.

They decide whether to contest or disengage.

They evaluate POI value and risk.

They adapt when another team unexpectedly lands nearby.

They manage imperfect loot.

They decide whether an early fight is worth taking.

They recover from bad situations.

These are not accidents that exist outside of Apex.

They are Battle Royale skills.

Then, around Diamond and above, Ranked can switch to Drop Zones.

Players are assigned POIs and much of the uncertainty surrounding the initial drop is reduced.

That may create a more controlled competitive environment.

But it is a different competitive environment.

My objection is not that Drop Zones are inherently bad.

My objection is that they are being inserted halfway through the same Ranked ladder.

If Drop Zones are better for competitive Apex, that is an argument for a competitive mode.

It is not necessarily an argument for changing the rules of standard Ranked after a player reaches a certain level.

WHO IS RANKED DESIGNED FOR?

This leads to a second question.

Who should the main Ranked mode primarily serve?

I understand why professional players, streamers, and established high-rank players may prefer Drop Zones.

They reduce chaotic early contests.

They reduce the possibility of losing large amounts of RP because several teams happened to land at the same POI.

They create more structured matches.

They may also reduce certain problems associated with predictable player drops at the highest levels.

Those are understandable concerns.

But professional and top-ranked players represent only a small part of the total Ranked population.

The main Ranked ladder is played by a much broader population.

If highly competitive players prefer an ALGS-like environment, I believe Apex should support that preference.

But it should not require the standard Ranked ladder itself to transform into that environment at Diamond.

Competitive Apex and Ranked Apex do not necessarily need to be the same product.

THE COMBINATION OF SYSTEMS MAY CREATE AN INCUMBENCY ADVANTAGE

Drop Zones are not my only concern.

The larger problem appears when several systems are considered together.

Established Master and Predator players have already spent significant time playing in the high-rank environment.

They understand its rotations.

They understand its pacing.

They have experience with Drop Zones.

They are more likely to have established teammates.

They are also placed relatively high again after rank resets.

Meanwhile, a player reaching Diamond for the first time enters this environment without the same accumulated experience.

That player may simultaneously encounter:

Higher-ranked opponents

A different drop system

Players with extensive high-rank experience

A much higher concentration of coordinated premade squads

Different macro expectations

And matchmaking expansion caused by the relatively small Master and Predator population

Each of these systems may have a reasonable justification when considered individually.

But game systems should also be evaluated by their combined effect.

Together, they may create a feedback loop:

Players who are already established in the high-rank ecosystem gain more experience in that ecosystem.

Their previous rank allows them to return closer to it after resets.

They are more likely to have established teams.

They become increasingly familiar with the rules used there.

This makes it easier for them to remain part of that ecosystem.

Meanwhile, new players attempting to enter it must overcome both stronger opponents and an environment in which established players already have accumulated experience.

I am not claiming that Respawn intentionally designed Ranked to protect existing Master and Predator players.

I am saying that the combined system may produce that effect regardless of intention.

And that possibility should be investigated.

RANK RESETS CAN REINFORCE THIS EFFECT

There is a legitimate reason not to reset former Predators into low ranks.

Nobody wants genuine Silver or Gold players to repeatedly fight former Predators at the beginning of every split.

But the opposite problem should also be considered.

If established high-rank players consistently begin much closer to the top while new challengers must climb through the entire ladder, previous success becomes a continuing structural advantage.

Initial seeding makes sense.

Repeatedly recreating an ecosystem in which the same population begins closest to the top deserves more scrutiny.

The objective should be to protect low-ranked players from elite players without making historical rank unnecessarily important to future rank.

DIAMOND SHOULD NOT SOLVE THE MASTER/PREDATOR POPULATION PROBLEM

Respawn has already acknowledged the difficulty created by small high-rank populations.

When there are not enough Master and Predator players, matchmaking has to expand.

But this creates another structural issue.

If the Master and Predator population is too small to create fast matches, who should bear the cost?

Currently, part of that cost can be transferred downward.

Diamond players become matchmaking supply for higher-ranked lobbies.

That effectively produces this relationship:

Small Master/Predator population

-> insufficient players for fast matchmaking

-> matchmaking expands downward

-> Diamond players face substantially stronger competition

I believe the more reasonable relationship is:

Small Master/Predator population

-> longer matchmaking times for Master/Predator

The highest-ranked players are already an extremely small and highly competitive population.

Longer queue times at the extreme top are a reasonable tradeoff for preserving the integrity of the ladder below them.

PREMADE ADVANTAGE MAKES THE TRANSITION EVEN MORE SEVERE

Respawn’s own matchmaking analysis demonstrates that premade composition matters.

A premade duo plus one solo player wins more often than three solo players.

A full premade trio also wins more often.

And the concentration becomes particularly extreme at Master, where Respawn reported that 85% of Master squads are full premades.

This means a newly promoted Diamond player may not simply be facing better individual players.

They may simultaneously be facing:

Better players

More experienced high-rank players

More coordinated teams

A different drop environment

And opponents from ranks above their own

That is not a smooth increase in difficulty.

It is several advantages being stacked at approximately the same point in the ladder.

WHY “THAT IS JUST YOUR TRUE RANK” IS NOT A SUFFICIENT ANSWER

A common response to players who stop progressing after reaching Diamond is:

“Then Diamond is simply your correct rank.”

Sometimes that will obviously be true.

But that explanation becomes too simplistic when the system itself changes around the same point.

A player’s final rank is not determined only by mechanical ability.

It is influenced by:

Scoring rules

Entry costs

Matchmaking ranges

Rank resets

Premade composition

Drop rules

And the population distribution created by those systems

Apex’s own Ranked history demonstrates how dramatically rank distributions can change when these systems change.

The players did not suddenly become massively better or worse between seasons.

The ranking system changed.

Therefore, we should be careful about treating every player’s current rank as a perfect measurement of their ability while ignoring the structure that produced that rank.

THE SOLUTION: KEEP STANDARD RANKED STANDARD

My preferred solution is simple.

Standard Ranked should use the same fundamental Battle Royale rules from the bottom of the ladder to the top.

Use the Dropship throughout standard Ranked.

Let stronger ranks become harder primarily because the players are stronger.

Do not introduce a different drop system halfway through the ladder.

CREATE A SEPARATE MODE FOR COMPETITIVE APEX

I do not want Drop Zones removed from Apex entirely.

If high-level and competitive players prefer them, preserve that style of play.

Create a separate competitive environment.

For example:

Apex Premier

or

Apex Competitive

Such a mode could use:

Drop Zones

POI Draft

ALGS-style scoring

Premade teams

Dedicated leaderboards

Qualification requirements

Tournament-related rewards or opportunities

This would give competitive players an environment specifically designed around competitive Apex without changing the rules of the standard Ranked ladder for everyone else.

REDUCE THE STRUCTURAL ADVANTAGE OF PREVIOUS RANK

Previous performance can be used for initial placement to prevent former elite players from destroying low-ranked lobbies.

But after initial placement, current performance should matter most.

Rank resets should be reduced.

Split resets should be reconsidered.

Historical rank should prevent inappropriate low-rank placement, not continuously reinforce a player’s position near the top.

TIGHTEN MATCHMAKING AROUND ACTUAL RANK

Diamond players should primarily fight Diamond players.

Master players should primarily fight Master players.

Predator players should primarily fight the highest-ranked population.

Some overlap is unavoidable.

But when matchmaking must expand significantly, the RP system should recognize the difference in lobby difficulty.

A Diamond player placed into a Master/Predator-heavy lobby should not be evaluated exactly as if that were a normal Diamond lobby.

PREMADE STRUCTURE SHOULD MATTER IN MATCHMAKING

Playing Ranked with friends should absolutely remain possible.

But matchmaking should prioritize similar team structures whenever population allows it.

Full premades should preferentially encounter full premades.

Duo-plus-solo teams should preferentially encounter similar teams.

Solo-heavy teams should preferentially encounter solo-heavy teams.

The objective is not to punish people for playing with friends.

It is to prevent party coordination from becoming another advantage stacked on top of rank, experience, and different competitive rules.

RESPAWN CAN TEST WHETHER THE INCUMBENCY EFFECT IS REAL

This does not need to remain a theoretical argument.

Respawn has the data required to test it.

Compare players reaching Diamond for the first time with previous Master or Predator players.

Control for current performance metrics such as:

Damage

Kills

Survival

Win rate

Top 5 rate

And other measures of current performance

Then compare:

RP gained per match

Probability of reaching Master

Number of matches required to reach Master

Solo versus premade performance

Performance in Dropship versus Drop Zone matches

Opponent rank distribution

Performance immediately after entering Diamond

And performance later in the split

The key question is:

After controlling for current player performance, how strongly does previous high-rank status predict reaching a high rank again?

If previous Master or Predator status remains a very strong predictor even among players with similar current performance, Respawn should investigate which parts of the system are producing that persistence.

That would help distinguish genuine persistent skill from structural incumbency advantage.

MY MAIN REQUEST

Please do not interpret this feedback as:

“Diamond is too difficult.”

That is not my argument.

Diamond should be difficult.

Master should be extremely difficult.

Predator should be extraordinarily difficult.

My argument is:

Do not make high ranks difficult by changing the rules, stacking multiple structural advantages, and using lower-ranked players to solve population problems at the top.

Make them difficult because the opponents are better.

A player climbing from Platinum to Diamond should think:

“The players are much better now.”

Not:

“The rules changed, the lobby structure changed, premade prevalence changed, and now I am also fighting players from above my rank.”

A Ranked ladder should allow new players to challenge the established elite under the same fundamental rules.

It should not unintentionally become easier to remain at the top simply because you are already part of the top-rank ecosystem.

Apex has experimented with Ranked systems for many seasons.

I believe it is time to establish a clear principle for what Ranked is supposed to be:

Same Battle Royale.

Same fundamental rules.

Stronger opponents as you climb.

And a fair opportunity for new challengers to replace established high-rank players if they are good enough.

Thank you for reading.

18 Replies

  • eldercitizen's avatar
    eldercitizen
    Seasoned Ace
    11 days ago

    Sabotage is Sabotage, no matter the form.

    I would much rather play against smurfs than to play with randoms who don't care about team play. This is why I have no pity for solo queuers, because most of them are careless. Solo queuers make it easy for stacked teams to perform well and then cry foul. 😭😒

    Players have also stopped playing Apex because of careless randoms. Players complain about this issue on this forum and Reddit. Players expect for matchmaking to give them ideal, like-minded, players. 

    Maybe the devs should add a "careless teammate" clause to TOS because its just as bad as smurfing. 

    In regards to all of these issues, they have always been in the game and will always be in the game. It's a double edged sword. The community will always be disappointed with the game if they expect a 100% success rate to remove cheating, smurfing, toxicity, and careless randoms. 

    Another reason casuals have left is because of the lack of content and excitement. For example, the permanent removal of Arenas and the lack of PvE modes. If Apex wants to be more like Fortnite then where is our "Save the World" type game mode. 

    Overall, I'm not criticizing your lack of care about being a bona fide team player. We both agree that players who solo queue have to deal with the consequences. I just believe that the carelessness, in regards to team play, is also a problem. Personally, this is one of my main issues with Apex. My other issue is toxic and narcissistic players who, somehow, forget they're playing a video game. 

  • reconzero's avatar
    reconzero
    Seasoned Ace
    11 days ago

    "Solo queuers make it easy for stacked teams to perform well and then cry foul."

    I could not agree more. This game has a shocking amount of whining going on about all manner of things that are either the player's own fault or completely meaningless - take your pick.

    "Maybe the devs should add a "careless teammate" clause to TOS because its just as bad as smurfing."

    In scale I would say they're far, far worse. In degree I would say they have less of an impact. But we're debating whether or not Mrs. Lincoln enjoyed the play.

    "The community will always be disappointed with the game if they expect a 100% success rate to remove cheating, smurfing, toxicity, and careless randoms."

    Nevertheless, there are other games that have fared better on every count. Respawn could to better. EA could do better. They keep making tentative steps in the right direction, but many of these problems are interrelated (cheating and smurfing prime among them), and until they tackle them as a unified whole then nothing of any real or lasting value will be accomplished. And as I've already said, they have no interest in tackling smurfing - which is sad, because it would be the easiest problem to solve out of the group.

    "Another reason casuals have left is because of the lack of content and excitement."

    100% agreed. I'm sure there are accountants at EA who, whilst starving Respawn of resources, will simultaneously decry the expense of an ongoing content pipeline and the inability of the game to meet financial expectations. Accountants are great when they run numbers for other people. They're the worst when they're put in charge of the bigger picture because they simply can't see it. It isn't in their dna. Sorry if you're an accountant, or married to one.

    "My other issue is toxic and narcissistic players who, somehow, forget they're playing a video game."

    I completely agree, and I say that without even a hint of irony - though I certainly do realize that both of those words have been liberally applied to me over the years, and probably still are in virtually every match I play.

    Anyhow, good posts. Keep 'em coming.

  • eldercitizen's avatar
    eldercitizen
    Seasoned Ace
    11 days ago
    reconzero wrote:

    And as I've already said, they have no interest in tackling smurfing - which is sad, because it would be the easiest problem to solve out of the group.

    How can the devs stop a person from creating a new EA account with a new email address? 

    reconzero wrote:

    I completely agree, and I say that without even a hint of irony - though I certainly do realize that both of those words have been liberally applied to me over the years, and probably still are in virtually every match I play.

    You're not toxic. Narcissistic... maybe 😆 

    reconzero wrote:

    But we're debating whether or not Mrs. Lincoln enjoyed the play.

    Mrs. Lincoln did not enjoy the play. Don't do her like that. 😆

  • reconzero's avatar
    reconzero
    Seasoned Ace
    10 days ago

    "How can the devs stop a person from creating a new EA account with a new email address?" 

    For as long as the only requirement is an email address... they can't. They need to implement account requirements that go far beyond an email address. It's easy to do. If you have the will to do it. EA doesn't have the will. They have a vested interest in the exact opposite of identity integrity. They have a vested interest in demonstrating, presumably to shareholders, that the game is growing. Something that hasn't been true in years now, but the average EA shareholder knows gaming like my dog knows brain surgery. Amongst EA's new shareholders you can count the likes of Jared Kushner and Saudi crown prince Mohammed bin Salman. I'll reach out to them on discord to see what they think about smurf accounts in competitive online gaming and whether they think Apex Legends is any the worse off for the army of players who willfully misrepresent themselves to the matchmaking algorithm. Yes, that was sarcasm.

  • donas3283's avatar
    donas3283
    Rising Novice
    9 days ago

    First of all, eldercitizen and reconzero, thank you both for keeping this discussion alive. I’ve really enjoyed reading your exchange and appreciate the different perspectives you’ve brought to it.

    I owe you both an apology for my silence. I stepped away for a little while, and by the time I came back, we’d gone from Drop Zones to smurfing, team psychology, EA shareholders, and Mrs. Lincoln. I clearly underestimated how much content this thread could produce without me. 😂

    And speaking of unexpected developments… Respawn has apparently decided to contribute to our discussion too!

    They’ve just announced their Ranked roadmap for Seasons 31 and 32, including Open League and Pro-Am League.

    I found the announcement particularly interesting because several elements seem remarkably close to what we’ve been discussing: distinguishing different competitive experiences, giving them clearer identities, and reconsidering how players with different expectations should fit into the Ranked ecosystem.

    Of course, we have no way of knowing whether anyone at Respawn read this thread. These plans may have been in development for some time. Still, I wouldn’t rule out the possibility that community discussions like ours helped shape or refine some of the ideas.

    Either way, it’s fascinating that while we’ve been debating what Ranked should look like, Respawn has unexpectedly offered something resembling an official answer.

    And I think both of you deserve some credit for how this conversation has developed. What started as a disagreement about DSO and DZO has turned into a much broader discussion about competitive integrity, player motivation, team composition, and how different game modes should serve different audiences.

    As for the roadmap itself, I have mixed feelings.

    I welcome the clearer distinction between competitive environments. However, my original concern remains: if players are progressing through a single Ranked system, should the fundamental rules change as they climb?

    Perhaps the new league structure will address that concern. Or perhaps it will simply formalize the very division we’ve been questioning.

    I’m also curious how you both feel about the idea of Pro-Am League compared with the separate ALGS-inspired mode we’ve discussed here. Does this move in the right direction, or does it leave the underlying problem unresolved?

    I’d genuinely love to hear your thoughts.

    And if Respawn really is taking notes from this thread, perhaps our next discussion should be about fixing matchmaking without sacrificing competitive fairness.

    Although, given how quickly this conversation has expanded, I wouldn’t be surprised if we somehow end up redesigning the entire game by next week. 😂

    Thanks again, both of you. Looking forward to hearing what you think!

  • eldercitizen's avatar
    eldercitizen
    Seasoned Ace
    9 days ago

    You're welcome. 😃

    Your discussion/topic/post deserved some attention. 

    Unfortunately, I really enjoy Apex comp. I've been playing FPS games since MW2 (2009), and I just enjoy game development. The future of gaming should always be cutting edge and exciting, not bogged down and deflating. Apex has a unique opportunity to transform in-game competitive gaming. 

    The new Ranked updates have been in development for a while. I'm not sure if posts are being channeled to the devs or not. I've always been vocal on the forum in regards to in-game social networking and competitiveness. That's what I care about. The upcoming Ranked updates look great. Ranked needs to evolve. Currently, it's too stagnant. The devs are trying to accommodate differing mentalities about what Ranked should represent. The upcoming updates seem like a "happy medium".

  • reconzero's avatar
    reconzero
    Seasoned Ace
    8 days ago

    I'm very heartened to see the ranked environment is evolving. Not for myself, as I've said many times before, but I know what an important part of the game the rank grind is to a lot of people and I want to see the game listening to and answering the call from it's players. And this is something they've been wanting for a long time.

    As eldercitizen​ well knows, I'm full of opinions on zones vs. ships, and since I have no personal stake in the outcome I can say that I would like to see them do whatever it is the competitive community thinks is best. I'm not sure if there's any consensus there, but I'll defer to it whatever it may be. As I said, I play so little ranked that I can't get too worked up either way. Except to say that if they did move to an exclusive drop zone system then that would be one certain way to make sure I never set foot in a ranked hopper again ever. 

    I've said before that, from the point of view of aesthetics, I prefer the game to be exactly the same regardless of whether the mode is ranked or unranked, and regardless of whether a given match is made up of rookies or predators. But again, I have no skin in that particular game. And history has shown, across many different games, that competitive play often evolves away from the main "casual" game, and there's no reason why Apex should be any different. Yes, it would disappoint me. No, it will not crush my spirit or drive me from the game.

    "And if Respawn really is taking notes from this thread, perhaps our next discussion should be about fixing matchmaking without sacrificing competitive fairness."

    I too hope they're listening. My confidence in Respawn's ability (or willingness) to address matchmaking problems is next to zero. The smurfing problem we've already talked about. They won't fix it because it serves their interests to leave it exactly as it is. Despite what they state in their own terms-of-service agreement. And until they stop the secondaries then matchmaking will be disastrous even if they were willing to allow a player to sit in the queue for two hours if that's how long a tight match took to get going. No, their definition of a tight match, at least in pubs, is bronze to platinum, gold to diamond, platinum to predator. That was match after match after match back when I still regularly played multiplayer. Ranked pretends to be better, but it is just a pretense. At least that was my experience.

    I would like to spend hours ripping apart the matchmaking in this game - come to think of it I probably have - but the one truth I keep returning to over and over again is that I've never played a competitive shooter that could execute good matchmaking. So it seems disingenuous to crap all over Respawn as if everyone else gets it right and only they get it so completely wrong.

    Every few seasons they announce a new, overhauled matchmaking algorithm that sets itself this goal or that goal. Then outcomes always seem to be a little different for a couple of weeks before they degenerate back into the same garbage we've always had. So I wait with anticipation for the next such announcement, certain that it will come and equally certain that it will change nothing. And even if it did, players would find a way to cheat it inside five minutes. I've never played a competitive shooter that wasn't ruined by its own player base sooner or later. Usually sooner. Thanks, smurfs.

    So yeah, if I started holding my breath waiting for improvement then I'd die waiting. Maybe things will get better at some point. Probably not. In the mean time I hope they continue to evolve their PvE mode. Bots, for all its flaws, seems to be the only meaningful fix for any of these problems.

     

  • donas3283's avatar
    donas3283
    Rising Novice
    7 days ago

    Thank you both, eldercitizen and reconzero, for your thoughtful replies! 😃

    I really appreciate the time you’ve taken to share your perspectives. It’s been a pleasure discussing the future of Ranked with people who genuinely care about Apex, even when we see things differently.

    I agree that Ranked needs to evolve, and I’m looking forward to seeing how Respawn’s plans work out in practice. Hopefully, the new system will strike a good balance between different competitive preferences.

    And reconzero, about your concern that Ranked might eventually become Drop Zones only… I think there’s still hope! 😂

    After all, Apex has dedicated skydive music and those fancy dive trails that come with certain Mythic skins. We even used to have dive trails as Ranked rewards, and Respawn is apparently revisiting that idea!

    Surely the cosmetics department wouldn’t be thrilled if the developers decided to eliminate the very thing that lets players show off their shiny dive trails.

    Imagine spending your hard-earned Heirloom Shards on a Mythic skin, only to hear:

    “Congratulations on your new dive trail! Unfortunately, we’ve removed the sky.” 😂

    Maybe the Dropship’s greatest defender isn’t the competitive community after all. Maybe it’s the cosmetics department!

    Jokes aside, thank you both again. I’ve genuinely enjoyed hearing your perspectives, and I’m excited to see how Ranked continues to evolve. 😃

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