Re: So why do people want low kill times

You're making an argument for a different conversation, and I agree with it. BR games with random loot spawns will never ever be competitive because of that randomness. Any kind of professional gaming scenario from sports to esports always has strict rules and regulations that everyone has to adhere to. 

Take Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare for example, back in the day. There were MLG events for that game and plenty of stuff was banned (perks, guns, attachments etc) but the underlying core to all of it was that players all had access to the same guns, equipment etc. Thars not the case in BR games due to random loot spawns all over the map. 

But back to the original point of lower kill times: BR games don't need to be like CSGO, people that are asking for lower kill times and faster player movement just want that ability for outplaying opponents to exist period. It's a lot harder to carry your teammates when the skill gap is small.

Ah sorry for going off topic, but thanks for the conversation! Idk I dont see the argumentation of "I want to be able to carry better." as something that should be taken too seriously, cause it comes from a place of subjective need (the need to carry, I sound like a * here I know but I couldnt think of a better way to convey this sentiment.) But hey thats just me. EDIT Mybe a better way of saying is that people take their own need to do well too seriously and try to tailor the entire game around that, ugh Im just talking out of my rear end at this point, sorry.

Well  I can only speak for myself but I suspect this is true for many others who feels this way.

I've spent over 20 years playing these types of multiplayer shooting games, I've sort of amassed a general sense of what other players tend to do or how they'll react in a given situation. That experience from spending all that time playing shooters is hampered by the small skill gap, high time to kill, and slow player movement. Apex Legends artificially compresses the skill gap by having a high time to kill and slow character movement. 

If you have 10 minutes, hop onto YouTube and search for "Bdobbinsftw will infinite warfare be bad?"

Listening to that vid as I type this. But wouldnt more hp require more skill? Hear me out? So instead of just being able to pop in on a dude and delete them immediately, you need to a) actually think about what they will do because they get more of a chance to react b) you actually have to keep aiming for longer (when talking about raw mechanical skill). I guess its kind of a disconnect cause he talks about the frenetic nonesensical bs that is cod. I hope I managed to get my idea across atleast. (Unless you reccommended me that video as a way of agreeing with what I said or part of what I said but somehow idk if thats it.)

A video by the same guy (unrelated topic) called "warning: black ops 4 is bad for you" is quite awesome. It's an hour long. I started watching it and didn't realize it had lasted an hour. It was that good

The original competitive console shooter was Halo, that had a long time to kill and it took skill to out strafe your opponent. Not every FPS game needs to be a twitch shooter and both types of games take skill.

Yes it is true that more hp means players need to maintain aim for longer periods of time, but at the same time this gives the player being shot at more time to react to being outplayed, thus compressing the skill gap. I wouldn't say needing to aim a target for a longer period of time equate to needing more skill, if players could pop in and kill someone like you said, they'd still need to have great mechanical skill due to the threat of the other player being equally able to kill you just as quickly. So it's basically a wash as far as needing to maintain aim for longer. Shooting in place leaves you more exposed, makes your position more well known to the enemy the longer you shoot. Slower character movement hampers those "good" player's ability (mechanical skill) to quickly escape or change position. It takes away their potential for quickly repositioning. Slow games like Apex Legends don't really allow for that outside of sometimes using an ability like Wraith's ghost move and Mirage's invisibility ultimate. 

I fail to understand why giving reaction time compresses the skill gap so much because if the player who was jumped on is less capable theyd still lose, even if its even the player already lost a chunk of hp and would need to perform better to survive. The way I see it more hp requires the assaulter to actually follow through on their assault rather than just ride the surprise attack to victory. EDIT It would also make full success wipes more rewarding because you will have coordinated with your team or just nailed so many headshots, or something like that.

The original Halo was dominated by the pistol that killed in 3 shots. 2 body shots, 1 headshot. That game's sniper rifle was truly a fast semiautomatic rifle with 0 recoil, could kill in one 1 shot and 2 at the most. The rocket launcher instantly killed anything it exploded next to. As for the other Halo games, they revolved around controlling the power weapon spawns, all of which could wipe an entire team out in a handful of seconds. The sword was a 1 hit kill on anything. The plasma pistol locked onto players like a heat seeking missile and took half their health and didn't even need to be aimed directly at a player. The battle rifle had the advantage of gigantic player hit boxes, including a huge critical hit area on the head. The shotgun had a huge one hit kill area, shoot them in the foot and their dead. The tanks killed in 1 hit. The ghost ran people over. The banshee had a bomb that instakilled players.

People died in Halo very, very quickly.

The other dobbins vid, idk he said some good things but i feel like towards the end he is conflating a lot of things as one issue to further his point when he really shouldnt, I think he severely and dangerously overestimates the free school concept or whatever he called it. I get it has its benefits but I feel like hes overestimating them, it sounds really good but when i think about it it ironically seems kinda naive. EDIT Also * this is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off course i suggest we dont give that vid too much discussion if nothing for the sake of the original point.

Not. True. You somehow completely missed the banner system. If anything high time to kill fixes this because the enemy team cant wipe all of you out fast enough to stop you from grabbing the banner and bolting for the nearest opportunity. Also personally there is no fun what so ever in a low time to kill for the dead person, and really low fun for the killer. Whereas in a higher time to kill there is an actual battle in which both parties can participate and feel engaged.

I am not saying reduce the TTK to COD levels I say take it down a noch because right now taking a team by surprise has no effect and if you are in a 1 v 3 or 1 v 2 situation unless your opponents are potatoes you are going to lose.

Okay I could see the point of surprise attacks not being as effective as they should be, but your point of not being able to win 1v3s confuses me. No, youre not supossed to, that is good, this is designed and built as a team game, and unless youre the jesus of fps you will not win 1v3 nor should you. If that experience displeases you then this game isnt for you. Atleast thats my understanding, unless ofcourse you want the game to enable this and just go the way of the classic ffas all other brs are. I just think it shouldnt go that direction because there are plenty of games that fulfill that and this game has a really good core built around teams. Though I would like to stress, just surprising someone shouldnt be enough, atleast to my understanding. You need to be able to follow through, I feel like too many people want the surprise attack to be the deciding factor all the time when I feel that is completely unnecessary, important factor, yes, more important than things like adaptability? No. EDIT I had a match where my teammate was under attack, I went around and flanked the person, got two solid bodyshots with an EVA, but after that i choked and kept missing while the other person didnt, if I had landed one more good shot they probably wouldve dropped, I was punished for my weak followup and thats fine.

The skill in Halo was landing headshots which killed faster, you could outplay your opponents with better aim. A less skilled player would aim for the body, get outplayed by the high skilled player who landed headshots.

You still had snipers in Halo that would one bullet kill with a headshot, they required twitch skills. A normal gunfight would came down to which player could stay on target, hit the most headshots while staffing and that takes skill. A game like Halo had a very high skill ceiling.

yes, it did but Apex isn't Halo.

SORRY IF THIS IS A REPEAT BUT I THINK MY REPLY DIDNT SEND PROPERLY

Okay I could see the point of surprise attacks not being as effective as they should be, but your point of not being able to win 1v3s confuses me. No, youre not supossed to, that is good, this is designed and built as a team game, and unless youre the jesus of fps you will not win 1v3 nor should you. If that experience displeases you then this game isnt for you. Atleast thats my understanding, unless ofcourse you want the game to enable this and just go the way of the classic ffas all other brs are. I just think it shouldnt go that direction because there are plenty of games that fulfill that and this game has a really good core built around teams. Though I would like to stress, just surprising someone shouldnt be enough, atleast to my understanding. You need to be able to follow through, I feel like too many people want the surprise attack to be the deciding factor all the time when I feel that is completely unnecessary, important factor, yes, more important than things like adaptability? No. EDIT I had a match where my teammate was under attack, I went around and flanked the person, got two solid bodyshots with an EVA, but after that i choked and kept missing while the other person didnt, if I had landed one more good shot they probably wouldve dropped, I was punished for my weak followup and thats fine.

I enjoy the longer TTK in Apex, you can still win a 1 vs 3 with your abilities and a wingman. 🤣

I mean okay you can with the right circumstances but what Im trying to say here is that its fine if you dont because youre not supposed to. If you do it should be a grand moment for you that youll remember or admire, but it should be the exception and not the rule. Failing isnt that horrible, especially if its after a hard fought battle as opposed to a oneshot kill.

It didn't resent it glitched somehow I saw it and replied to it and it didn't post at all I am just saying that even for the skilled player it is impossible to win against 2/3 bullet sponges when it takes a whole mag to win a fight you can say taht you can strafe and hit only headshots but in my opinion stuff like that depends on luck and not really on skill and it would rarely happen. Again don't take it to an extreme just lower it a bit my opinion that it should be reduced from a 200 to a 150 or 125 altho 125 might be a bit low it would still give you time to react but ambushes and landing your shots would matter more Right now at least for me it doesn't feel satisfying when I empty a mag into someone and they run behind their buddies to heal. I think either a big buff to the weapons should be done or a slight nerf to the armour.

Most Legends don't have damaging abilities and those that do need perfect conditions to win take blood hound he has no damaging abilities and a reposition doesn't really help much I get that they wanted to focus on the ability play but the guns should be just as important

I get what youre saying is but to that again I ask what are the other two doing, okay he ran behind the buddies, have your buddies fill the other dudes full of holes, throw a nade, i dont know. Also for the record I am not trying to belittle you or invalidate your point entirely, I hope I dont come across that way. As im not a pro mybe im wrong and a mild change will be excellent, I just like questioning stuff.

I actually like the way you discuss you make very valid  points I am trying to talk from a solo player experience where I mostly get placed with people that are not that good at the game not saying that they are awful but it mostly goes wrong I just want to not depend as much on others because as a player that wants to play as competitive as possible it is hard to find good people not saying that there are non. If the game had a solo mode I would be fine with the current TTK.

And with that we come to the crux of the issue I feel. Should BRs be treated so competitively? Like I said previously no I dont think they should, least not to that extent. If there are recognizeable outliers tackle them, but BRs cant ever be legitemately comp games. As for your teammates not being capable as youd like them to be, I mean for me that seems thats like complaining you landed in the open area and found nothing but pistols. If you take away the team aspect you take away the uniqueness of Apex Legends, because you will sometimes win, mybe becuase of people on your team being that capable, mybe cause you were at the right places in the right times. For me it all meshes and creates this experience of Apex I find enjoyable. Yes I get angry when something bad happens or when I think someone made a mistake but * im not perfect. (If anything mybe cause I'm not so good myself im less inclined to be frustrated by bad teammates.) I just dont think Solo will serve this game as well as people think it will. [Just as I was about to submit this I had some auth issues so hopefully its not a double.]

For me that randomness makes it exciting knowing that you could take on players with better loot and still succeed I played and still play a lot of Rust I have above 1k hours in that game and it never gets old to be able to kill people with higher gear than you with your skill right now.. in Apex I find that hard because if somebody just simply better armour than you and they are half decent they can easily win an encounter because right now even if you land headshots you still can lose. With the current TTK it is har for the better player with lower loot to win against the worst player with better loot.